Jane Carpenter-Rock: Art, Diplomacy, Division, and Stewarding the American Story

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Art, culture, and the Smithsonian has been in the crosshairs of some cultural wars that have been going on recently. At our museum, We actually were cited in one of the executive orders and it increased our visitation and we sold more catalogs. Our goal and my goal as the acting Director of the Museum is not to tell people what to think, but we're interested in helping to give them many perspectives.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Welcome to Good Citizen, a podcast from the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library. I'm Ted Roosevelt. My guest today is Jane Carpenter-Rock, the acting Director of the Smithsonian American Art Museum. Jane's path to stewarding one of the nation's great cultural institutions was anything but linear. She spent two decades with the United States Department of State, serving overseas in South Africa and Columbia before leading the National Museum of American Diplomacy, work that placed culture squarely at the center of how nations understand each other. Today, Jane helps oversee a collection that tells the American story in all its complexity across centuries, communities, and contradictions. In this conversation, we explore how American art functions as a form of cultural diplomacy, how it opens space for dialogue, reflection, and sometimes discomfort, and why that matters. We also talk candidly about the moment we're in. Cultural institutions are facing renewed political scrutiny, including the president's direct rebuke of the Smithsonian Institution itself. Jane brings a calm, thoughtful perspective on what it means to lead a public institution when art history and civic values are suddenly at the center of national debate. It's a conversation about art and public service and about the responsibilities of stewardship in a moment when the meaning of culture and who serves it is very much up for discussion.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

So I was working in a gallery in Georgetown and I met a woman who worked for a program called Arts America at the State Department, and her name was EJ Montgomery. When I met her, I said, "oh, well, you're doing exactly what I want to do. I want to curate American art exhibitions that will travel around the world. I want to help share the best of American visual art with the rest of the world." And she said, "you should apply to the State Department. That's what I do. That's my job." And at the moment when I defended my dissertation, I had to decide, was I going to pursue curating or academia or was I going to go on this big adventure and promote American art around the world, and I chose to join the State Department.

Ted Roosevelt V:

That sounds amazing.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

It was an amazing experience. I will tell you though, the year that I joined the State Department, they then closed the office called Arts America. So I had to shift gears a little bit and I had a more conventional public diplomacy career promoting educational exchange and information exchange. So it was a very rewarding career.

Ted Roosevelt V:

I think a lot of listeners might be surprised to know that there was ever a program, Arts America, in the State Department.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yeah. There was always a real interest and desire amongst people around the world to know more about American culture, and I think we in the US government realized that art really could serve as a bridge to advance mutual understanding, to advance conversations. People were more likely to listen and to engage if the topic was art, because something I think we share as human beings around the world and something that dates back even to ancient times is human instinct to create. When we share art– art and culture– then there's more of a willingness for other nations, other people to share that art and culture with us in return. So it becomes a great way to mutually learn and respect one another.

Ted Roosevelt V:

We've talked about it on other podcasts, the role of music in diplomacy has been used throughout history.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yes.

Ted Roosevelt V:

And there's something about leading with the shared humanity to sort of bring that into the room before having a more difficult conversation, maybe. It sets the tone in a way that is a more fertile ground for those conversations.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Absolutely, and I think what happens as well is that you find resonances and similarities and there are similar patterns, similar beats, similar melodies that you might not have realized existed until you come together and share the music, share the artwork, and that kind of shared experience, it can be quite fertile, quite instructive.

Ted Roosevelt V:

How does an institution like the State Department decide what art to put forward or what it wants to emphasize? I imagine there are various cultural considerations, certain messaging that they want to project.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yeah. Well, it changes from time — from moment to moment, from administration to administration. Yes, it very much depends on what types of values the American government is trying to advance. Many times the focus is on democracy, and so what kind of American artist would best project that? I will tell you a little story based on an exhibition that we have that's going to open tomorrow here at the Smithsonian American Art Museum. The artist Grandma Moses was quite popular in the 20th century, and for people that don't know her work, she has very — what some might consider simplistic landscape scenes of rural America — rolling hills and orchards and people at work in fields harvesting. And in the 1950s during the height of the Cold War, there was a desire to show that the US had agricultural roots, that we had our roots in a simpler time of the hard work. So Grandma Moses was selected as an artist that would be promoted during that tense time when we wanted to show that we could find common ground with the people of other countries. Even though our governments might not be getting along, our people could understand one another because we had shared histories and shared experiences.

Ted Roosevelt V:

So what brings you back to the Smithsonian? Because you have almost an entire — I mean some people would call it an entire career in the State Department before you get to the Smithsonian. What happens that you decide to head back to the United States?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Well, yes, you're very right. I spent 20 years in the State Department. I loved it. It was a wonderful experience. I met my husband, I had three children, and we lived all around the world, and I was looking for a way to put down roots in the DC area, and of course, I wanted to get back to my original passion, which was American art. I've always had a love and fascination with art — art and culture. So I came here as a young intern, just learning about all the various activities that go on in a museum, what it takes to put together an exhibition. Then as I was working on my dissertation, I came back to the Smithsonian American Art Museum as a predoctoral fellow. For me, I felt it was a little bit unfinished business. I'm from the DC area, I grew up here, I roamed the halls of the Smithsonian as a young girl, and I knew of just the magic and the learning that could happen and the very unique lens or window that American art can provide into our history and into our current current social issues as well.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Well, I want to pull on that thread a little bit, the idea of — the focus on American art versus art more broadly. Can you expound a little bit on why American art in particular is so compelling to you?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Well, I always found it very fascinating to look at art that was being created by various communities in our country and the messages that they were trying to send, but also the issues that they were trying to work out at the same time. So for example, I wrote my dissertation on an artist named Betye Saar. She's still alive. She's still an assemblage artist from California —

Ted Roosevelt V:

99, I think? Is that right?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yes. She just had her 99th birthday, and I was always fascinated by the fact that she would take ordinary objects all around us and she would make us question those objects and kind of turn them on their heads. So one of her most famous pieces is called The Liberation of Aunt Jemima, and she focused on stereotypical imagery, derogatory imagery of African-Americans, and forced us to ask questions about these pieces. They were often promoted to show subservience, but she was subverting this imagery and showing that even though the mammy figure that she uses in The Liberation of Aunt Jemima seemed subservient, she also depicted her with a baby in one arm and a shotgun in the other. And so I was a huge fan of Betye Saars. I still am because of her ability to take imagery that we're surrounded by every day and question it. American art has a long history of that, and I always found that to be a very powerful form of social commentary — using art as a way to reach people.

Ted Roosevelt V:

And that brings us to the present moment, right? I mean, this is where social commentary has been, to put it politely frowned upon by the current administration, certain forms of commentary and art and specifically at the Smithsonian, were actually denounced in an executive order last year.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yes.

Ted Roosevelt V:

How do you balance the inclusion or exclusion, I guess, of voices that raise uncomfortable truths about our nation and at the same time recognize that provoking discomfort is to some extent what art is meant to do?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I believe a hallmark of American art is that emphasis on freedom of expression. So it is a value we hold very dear in our nation, and freedom of expression, yes, is often speech or writing, but it is often, many times visual arts. So there isn't just one message that our museum sends. They're not not just one message that the artists in our collection send. It's a multiplicity of voices. I would say if folks walk through our hallways and they see something that doesn't resonate for them or they don't really appreciate, just keep walking, walk down a few galleries further.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Keep going. Yeah.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

You'll — you'll find something that resonates with you that you can identify with, and if you want to understand an issue more deeply, then look to the artists who are creating pieces that are considering these issues because they add nuance and complexity that you don't always get in polarized discussions. I agree with you that art culture and the Smithsonian has been in the crosshairs of some cultural wars that have been going on recently. At our museum, we actually were cied in one of the executive orders and it increased our visitation and we sold more catalogs and we became a point of conversation. We got people talking about the issues highlighted in that exhibition. Our goal and my goal as the acting Director of the Museum is not to tell people what to think. That is not our goal, but we're interested in helping to give them many perspectives, various perspectives, and help them to think about all the factors could play into their thinking about a certain issue.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Something surprising came up for me, which is I didn't really know what the Smithsonian was. I thought I knew what it was to be totally clear, but when I went back and researched, I didn't realize that the institution museum had — was the result of a donation from a British scientist. And in my head, I guess I had always thought it was the nation's museum and a scientific institute that was funded by the federal government right out of the gates, and in fact, it does get federal funding, but that's not its origins.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

It was really a bequest from a gentleman named James Smithson, who was a British citizen, never stepped foot in the United States.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Amazing.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

But he was very inspired by all the innovation and discoveries that American scientists were doing and was fascinated by this vast territory of land that we had and decided to leave this bequest to a relative. And if the relative did not have children, that the money would then come to the United States for the increase and diffusion of knowledge. That is our official mission.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Which is a very broad mission.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yes, very broad.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Today, fast forward almost 200 years I think, since the founding, how does the Smithsonian understand that mandate?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yes. Well, the Smithsonian still adheres to the original mandate — 21 museums and research institutes encompassing science technology, the arts and the museum where I am the acting Director, our focus is American art. So we are the Smithsonian American Art Museum, but we're just one of 21 other museums and research institutes all focused on the increase in diffusion of knowledge in various arenas. We have a very large building here. Many people refer to it as the old patent office building, but it's a historic federal building here in the center of Washington D.C.. It was the third federal building built when Washington D.C. was being planned out. They built the White House, the Capitol, and then the old patent office building.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Amazing.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

And it used to be the place to be, a place to come to see all the patent models. At the time, the rules were such that if you wanted to apply for a new patent, you had to build a very tiny little miniature version of whatever invention you were making. And all those little patent models were displayed all throughout this very cavernous building. Much later in time in the sixties, the building was converted into a museum, but our collection, our art collection dates back to 1829 when an American arts patron wanted to donate his art to the United States government, and eventually that collection formed the nucleus of the Smithsonian American Art Museum.

Ted Roosevelt V:

I love that. It's not just the art, but the building itself that has stories to tell. It sounds like a really rich way to engage with American history. But if we can go back to the executive order for a second, the way in which history is being presented is being called into question. It accuses the Smithsonian of being driven by ideology rather than truth, so I just wonder how you respond to that.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Yeah. Well, here at SAAM, us individually, we have not responded and we won't respond. It's really something more that is being led by Smithsonian leadership. So we just do our jobs from day to day and we focus on the exhibitions that we've been planning for many years now. The response that — that has been discussed internally is really just ensuring that the information that we share is based in scholarship, is based on academic rigor, and we are being introspective at this time and taking a look and saying, are we editorializing or are we sharing the information and the research that we have uncovered without bias? We have talked about ways like, how do we show the math? How do we show that this interpretation that we have of this piece or this historical information that we're sharing, where did we find it? What scholarship are we using to underpin what we share in our galleries? And we're trying to find ways to demonstrate that. Also, are we making it accessible? One thing I think we realized is sometimes academic jargon will creep into language in the galleries, in the wall labels. I think there's a general rule of thumb within the museum profession that the language that you share in the galleries should really be pitched at about an eighth grade reading level, and that is a very good guiding principle because people don't need to have a PhD in art history. They shouldn't have to have a PhD in art history to come into our galleries and appreciate and enjoy what we're sharing.

Ted Roosevelt V:

I will say somebody who has a graduate degree, I appreciate the eighth grade level when I walk in.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Me too.

Ted Roosevelt V:

I mean, it just helps me out. I've had a small window working with the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library and how difficult this task is for you and for everybody at the Smithsonian, because we're going back and reviewing the life of a man who lived over a hundred years ago. It's a different time. There were certainly controversial things that happened during his era, controversial things that he was involved in. There's some balance between telling the story holistically, telling it in a way that is a positive story, but at the same time making sure that all the voices are in the room. And I was stunned at how complicated that conversation is.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

It is very complicated, and you do have to really check yourself. Am I thinking something based on assumptions or biases? Our building, we span two whole blocks here in Washington D.C.. It can look very intimidating and imposing to people. It has big, long marble steps, tall, white, marble columns. Most folks might not think there's something in here for them. They think it's a bank or I don't know whether and that it's —

Ted Roosevelt V:

Or a patent office.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Or a patent office — that it's imposing and we want to break that down and we don't want that reinforced when they come in and they read a label either that they can't understand or think is not based in fact or is biased. We don't want to turn people off or turn people away in that way, so we have to be very careful about what we're sharing and how we're sharing it.

Ted Roosevelt V:

The Smithsonian American Art Museum faces scrutiny from many different sides, whether it's political, cultural or from the broader public. How does that factor into the choices that you make?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

There's always going to be critiques, so I think we just have to start there. There are always going to be people who like it or don't like it, who like the artist who don't like the artist. I think in the beginning when I started studying art history, there were moments where I was looking at things that I didn't like and I felt like, "oh, well, maybe I shouldn't study art history. Maybe this is not for me because I don't like all art that I see." Turns out you don't have to.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Fortunately.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Fortunately. You can engage with it. You can debate it, you can disagree with it. Debates aren't comfortable, but honestly, they can be very productive. There often are no right or wrong answers, and the mere act of having the debate of thinking more deeply about issues, can be beneficial and it can help us come to understandings maybe that we didn't already have. Exploring ideas is much better than not exploring them. Having debates and disagreement is better than not having a conversation at all, and I think what we have to learn how to do is to do it in a civil way, in a respectful way, and appreciate the intellectual pursuit and endeavor rather than personalizing.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Totally agree with that. I remember when I was in high school, and I'm not a subject matter expert, but I took an art history course and we studied the Dada movement, and I remember thinking, this is not for me. I mean, I got nothing here. And yet it's still not for me, and I'm sure smarter people than me can explain why it's very important. But I do come back to it in my thinking about art and sort of the bounds of how I understand art because it sort of made me very uncomfortable, which I think may have been part of the point.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Sometimes the art is not about what you're sitting there looking at in front of you. Sometimes the art is about the concept behind what led the artist to produce that thing sitting in front of you. For example, I, just because of who I was when I was a graduate student and writing my dissertation, I liked art that had a message that had a meaning, that was making a social commentary that I found very intriguing, and I didn't always love abstract art, but now I can absolutely appreciate art where artists have said it doesn't have a message, it's just about being a study in a certain color or a study in a certain form. For example, the artist you can see right behind me, Alma Thomas, she was born in Georgia, but she grew up most of her life here in Washington D.C.. She taught in D.C. public schools for like 38 years, and she has these beautiful abstract geometric pieces that are really studies in color. And she was critiqued during her day for not having artwork that engaged in the Civil Rights movement, for example, or the Black Power Movement. She was an African-American artist. She said, I don't want my art to do that. I want my art to be about examining nature and being beautiful. And, where I am now in my life, I can sit in a gallery of Alma Thomas' and be endlessly intrigued and fascinated. I don't need that political commentary in the art. American art and the art in our museum is also a perfect demonstration of the diversity of our country that everybody comes from a different perspective. Everybody is at a different point in their lives, so there's room for everyone.

Ted Roosevelt V:

What has been the biggest challenge of the role as the director of SAAM? What has been the biggest challenge for you?

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

First and foremost, when I first arrived in the role of acting Director, my biggest concern then, and my biggest concern now is our staff. And cultural institutions are often under attack in our society. They're often underfunded, and so how do we help our staff do less with less, but we can't continue the same pace of work that we have had previously if we don't have the same number of staff members, if we don't have the same number of resources. It then becomes a job of prioritizing. Where do we cut back? Where do we not cut back? How do we prioritize our people and help them feel like they have rewarding experiences and careers and not overwork them and make sure that morale stays high, even though museums have become contested sites and sites that get critiqued right now, that what they're doing is still very important.

Ted Roosevelt V:

How do you manage morale in a moment like this? How are people feeling at the Smithsonian, at SAAM in particular? And I guess, how do you manage, what I can only presume is a sense of being under attack.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

I would characterize it more as a period where there's uncertainty and that can be disconcerting for people. And what does that mean for one's job? What does that mean for one's finding and deriving meaning from what they're doing? So I focus on ensuring they feel proud of the work that they're doing. We celebrate victories, we learn from our mistakes and defeats. This job, it's in a museum, but we're public servants. And so I want to be sure that the service that the staff members here are doing to their nation, it's service to the nation, that that's honored, that that's valued, that that's praised. We have the world's experts in so many different aspects of American art. We have experts in conservation, we have experts in museum education, in exhibition design, and I really think it's important to tell that story to tell the stories of our museum professionals as well.

Ted Roosevelt V:

So Jane, what we've been talking about sort of in totality is kind of the service of the Smithsonian to the nation. And so in that context, I'm curious, we ask everybody on this podcast this closing question, which is, what does it mean to be a good citizen? And given your seat and the role that you have, I'm curious how you view what good citizenship means.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

First and foremost, being a good citizen is about being informed and just being knowledgeable and aware of things that are going on around you. I also think it's being engaged, and one of the ways that I think art can help us be engaged is by building bridges with others. So art can help us start conversations. Art can help us find common ground. Art can be unifying. If I engage in a certain type of artwork or practice, artistic practice, and there's somebody across the globe who does the same thing, imagine the conversations we can have. Being a good citizen is about trying to find ways to build those bridges and find common ground. And finally, because I work in an art museum and in the field of art, I think being a good citizen is being innovative and being creative and finding ways to say things, do things think about in ways that haven't been done before.

Ted Roosevelt V:

I love it. That is, I think, the first time anybody has brought in innovation and creativity into the role of citizenship. So I very much appreciate that insight as well. So thank you.

Jane Carpenter-Rock:

Well, thank you so much. This was very enjoyable. It was such a pleasure meeting you. Be kind. Be kind.

Ted Roosevelt V:

Jane. It was easy to be kind because you are such a knowledgeable and gracious guest. Thank you so much for being on the show. Listeners, if you're headed to Washington D.C. the Smithsonian American Art Museum is a gem. Right now, there's a fabulous exhibit on State Fairs, and of course Grandma Moses's A Good Day's work is on exhibit there until July. Admission is always free. Good Citizen is produced by the Thedore Roosevelt Presidential Library in collaboration with the Future of StoryTelling and Charts & Leisure. You can learn more about TR's upcoming presidential library at trlibrary.com.