Live from the TRPL #4: The First Lady & the Modern Presidency: A Panel Hosted by Kjersti Armstrong

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Anyone in the medical community will tell you that women's health is measured in two time periods before Betty Ford and after Betty Ford. That's how profound that act was for her to speak out. So you're both absolutely right. They are in this position that's so ill-defined, no salary. Pat Nixon called it the hardest unpaid job in the world, but it is such an opportunity to help drive the nation forward on issues that need attention.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Welcome to Live from the TRPL on Good Citizen, a podcast from the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library. I'm Ted Roosevelt. The Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library officially opened its doors on July 4th, 2026. And in the days leading up to it, the brand new auditorium hosted some really special talks, interviews, and panel discussions. These featured a striking lineup of voices, including historians, conservationists, architects, and political leaders. I wanted to give our podcast listeners a chance to hear some of these great speakers. So we've put together a short series, six episodes over six weeks. The focus of this episode is First Ladies. Now, the First Lady's job description is famously non-existent. No handbook, no contract, no paycheck, just a front row seat to power, a hugely public stage, and the constant pressure of getting it right, even when nobody can agree on what right looks like. North Dakota's First Lady, Kjersti Armstrong, leads this panel discussion, bringing together Betsy Fischer Martin, Anita McBride, and Michelle Orden.

Together, they dig into how the role actually works, not through formal authority, but through the presence, relationships, timing, and a lot of judgment calls. They'll start fittingly with Edith Roosevelt, whose partnership with TR helped shape a more modern presidency in ways we still feel today. But then they zoom out to the generations after her, looking at how First Ladies influence public life and civic culture. And of course, they don't leave out the realities of being watched and judged at every turn. These panelists bring White House experience, presidential history expertise, and leadership research to a question that isn't only about the role, but about agency and power. What does it take to lead when your influence is complicated, your visibility is relentless, and what you contribute is often both essential and forgotten? I'll turn you over to Kjersti Armstrong now to get it started.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Good afternoon, everyone. What an amazing week to be an American and better yet a North Dakotan. To all of our friends at the library, I am so incredibly impressed and proud of you. The whole team, Robbie, Ed, congratulations. You've created something spectacular that I really think is going to be transformative for anyone that walks through it. So thank you. Great thing for North Dakota, great thing for our country, and also a great thing for the world. I have a group of wonderful women with me here today. First, we have Betsy Fischer Martin to my left. She's an award-winning former news executive who is currently a professor at American University School of Public Affairs and the executive director of their Women in Politics Institute. Her career spans political journalism, public affairs, and higher education, including more than two decades at NBC News producing Meet the Press and later overseeing political programming.

She is excited to begin a new job this fall as the director of the Institute of Politics at Harvard University. So congratulations, Betsy.

We also have Anita McBride. She is an internationally recognized expert on First Ladies, White House operations and presidential history. She directs the First Ladies Initiative at American University, and she previously served as the chief of staff, the First Lady, Laura Bush. So she has some insights here. After two decades of White House service across three administrations. And to her left, we have Michelle Orton. Michelle is the director of the Theodore Roosevelt Leadership Program and a professor of leadership studies at Dickinson State University. Her work focuses on ethical leadership, civic engagement, and preparing students to lead the life of purpose, service, and impact. And Michelle and I have a little special bond. We actually were in the same hospital at the same time, welcoming our firstborns, and they now just graduated from high school. We have known each other ever since. But these ladies have a lot of insights, so let's dig into the conversation.

I'm going to start with you, Anita. Sure. The First Lady has influence, visibility, access, and expectations, but she has no constitutional job description. From Edith Roosevelt to the modern era, how have first ladies used that undefined space and what are the strengths and limitations of power that work through relationships, trust, presence, and judgment rather than formal authority?

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Well, thank you very much, Kjersti, for moderating this with us and for everyone that's here to hear about First Ladies. It's such an important role and it's a role that has no position description, no definition. In fact, in our constitution, there's 35 words, only 35 words for the President of the United States to take the oath, but not one word about the First Lady, but it's an immediately powerful platform the minute the president takes the oath of office. And our first president knew that. He knew it was a two-person job and he needed Martha to help him as a partner, particularly in the ceremonial function of which she was very well skilled. And I think it's important to look at our first three, the founding mothers, if you will, Martha, who helped to set the standard for what it was like to live in a republic.

And Abigail Adams, who followed her, tried very hard to emulate the way Martha Washington and her social graces and bringing people together, but she found it hard to hold her tongue and was an example of a first lady whose influence was so profound on her husband and really was a woman ahead of her time. So she was an example of how the position can really lead. She was an abolitionist, for example, and believed in education for women and women's rights. Very famously said, remember the ladies to her husband when he was writing the Constitution, and that was never included, of course, for 133 years. But the following, Dolly Madison, another one who set the standard of bipartisan entertaining. So we have these three women and that went unmatched for decades. So we have these three women who are confidants to their husband who used the social role to set a standard for the new nation and really at the end of the day showed that they were so profoundly devoted to the success of the new country of which there was no guarantee that it would survive.

So they give us an example for first ladies to follow on how to act in a very undefined role, and each of them created it on their own.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

So I'll follow up with you again, Anita. Edith did not hold elected office as we just discussed, but she did help shape the modern presidency. She hired the first White House social secretary. She restored the White House. She managed family privacy, hosted diplomats, and helped create a more disciplined public role around the president. For those who know Theodore Roosevelt well, but know Edith less well, what should we understand about her and her role?

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Well, she was a First Lady of First. For example, she was the first First Lady to travel abroad with her husband. That was to the Panama Canal. I mean, she did come into the White House and helped and ushered in a modern era. She was really the first First Lady of the 20th century. And by establishing the first professional staff position for First Lady, which was a social secretary, because she came in with this big family and she needed to manage, excuse me, the expectations of a social calendar, which was so important, but also a private life. And also, of course, one of the most important things that she oversaw was the renovation of the White House, an extraordinary change to the physical structure of the White House. The most important is moving all of the staff out of the residence into a new executive wing, which we all know and call the West Wing today.

But she was so astute about being close to her husband. She was his eyes and ears on almost everything, every decision that he made. She put her office right next to his up in the residence because she did, of course, maintain an office for him up there. And the door was always open and she would sit there and she would hear everything that was going on. And Teddy Roosevelt himself said that later that her judgment was so good that whenever he went against it, he regretted it. The one thing to know about... Yes. And the governor, where's the governor? The one thing to know about her too, she played this profoundly important role in diplomacy. And this is during the negotiations of the war between Russia and Japan, Theodore Roosevelt is asked to mediate the conflict and he needed valuable information that he could not get through official channels.

She was the mediator. There's extensive correspondence that we discovered in writing our book, Remember the First Lady, between her and a British diplomat who was in St. Petersburg, Russia, that was providing valuable information of what was happening on the ground. And it helped Theodore Roosevelt in his negotiations, which were successful and for which he received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1906. So she clearly had a role to play there.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Remarkable. I had the pleasure of speaking with Maria Shriver last week, and she said that when she took his office as the First Lady of California, the budget for the First Lady's office was earmarked as a no, but a project of the governor's. I don't think it remained that way, but I suspect that Edith was not a project of the governor's.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

No, no, clearly. And she was successful in getting that one federal position though, and of course it's grown. Yes.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Moving on to you, Betsy. Roosevelt's public energy was famous, but every public leader has a private architecture of support, family, marriage, friendships, faith, routine, counsel, and home. What do First Ladies reveal about the private conditions that make public leadership possible, and what happens when the public forgets that leaders are always human beings as well?

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Yeah, it's such a great point, and thank you, Anita, for that download on everything there, because it's fascinating. When you think about the eyes and the ears, so important that proximity to power and the power that First Ladies have, but they also... We're judging them all the time, that issue of perception. And First Ladies are people too. They're humans, right? And they are often looked at to try to humanize the president in some ways, but you have to realize that there's risks with that. There's this double standard that we talk about a lot when we talk about women in politics, that you have that double bind of being judged on lots of different elements. Are you knife enough? Are you tough enough? Are you this? Are you that? I think that comes into play with First Ladies as well. It is a really hard line for them to have to walk, plus all of the other responsibilities that are added on, the humanizing, the eyes and the ears, the proximity to power.

I feel like, especially in this modern presidencies and First Ladies, that there's not a perfect formula for this, and we don't always get it right. I think Anita in her time with Mrs. Bush, I mean, I though you all spent so much time thinking strategically about the projects that she was going to do in such a way and really took a lot of care of that perception. I feel like when First Ladies go through campaigns, it's a negative environment, and that's when sometimes negative narratives can take hold. And it's very hard having been in the media, once a media has a narrative of a particular person, First Lady or not, it's difficult to change that. And so coming into public view in a way through a tough campaign, you can sometimes have these negative perceptions that exist. I mean, just look at anyone who lived through the '92 Hillary campaign.

It took her a long time to shake some of the negative perceptions of her that happened during that campaign. I thought what Anita did so well during Mrs. Bush's presidency is just really thinking about where she was going to be, who she was going to be talking to, the kinds of issues that she was going to be working on in a way that she could enhance the power of her husband, of the presidency, and do it in a way that I think really did support him in the public perception.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Can I just say one thing to that? In fact, in my interview with Laura Bush to be her chief of staff, she said exactly that, "I'm not here for me. I'm here for George and because of George." So everything that she wanted to do and really set the direction as the First Lady, we were the staff that executed it, but we did look to fulfill that goal of hers. What was he working on? What were the priorities of the administration? Where can she take her background and her expertise and contribute to that?

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

And I think even with Afghanistan, what she was able to do, and you would not have anticipated that coming into office, of course, but there was a need for her to take that role and talk about the importance of helping women in Afghanistan. And she did that in such a way that elevated the issue so that people were talking about it so that it was on the agenda.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

And came on your show. Talked about it multiple times.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Came on Meet the Press as well. And I will say having tried to book First Ladies on Meet the Press over the years, it's very difficult because they want to approach it in a way that's strategic and thoughtful. For example, we never had Michelle Obama on Meet the Press because she was very, very cognizant of not wanting to be political.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Yeah, and it's hard.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

And it's hard. And when you come on a show like Meet the Press, there is an undercurrent of politics, but when Mrs. Bush would come on, it was usually, this is creative booking on my part, we would say, "We're doing a special edition of Meet the Press. We're going to dedicate the entire show to talking about women in Afghanistan" or something. So she would come and she would do it. We didn't ever bait her into politics and she would come back.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

And she appreciated that, because I think all first ladies worry about the trick question. [Fischer Martin^They do. They do.] And being tripped up and mostly that there'd be some light of day being shown between themselves and their husbands, particularly on policies. And it happened to Barbara Bush, it happened to a number of them. But no, thank you for those.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

But that's an interesting point. How do you see the different modern first ladies' approach to coordinating with their husbands and being completely in line, at least from the outside, looks as though the last few first ladies have done it very differently.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

It was interesting. I was just reading an article in Politico this morning about First Lady Melania Trump, and it was all about what she's doing this term very strategically using her time and focus. And then the headline was, "I want this on Donald's desk in August." It was about a bill that she wanted Congress to pass, but that was her kind of asserting much different than I thought in the first term of how she was.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

It sure is the benefit of having walked the walk before and been through the line of fire and the familiarity of the position, what's expected of you, living in the house, knowing that all those things make it much more comfortable to say, "Okay, this is how I'm going to do it my way this time." And it was a very hostile environment for her in the first term, and she certainly is controlling that much better on her behalf.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Thank you. Moving on to you, Michelle. We often tell leadership stories as if great leaders emerge alone. Edith Roosevelt complicates that story. She was not just adjacent to TR's presidency. She helped steady the household, manage the public stage and support the institution around him. What should young leaders learn from the idea that leadership is formed through partnership and not just through individual ambition?

MICHELLE ORDEN:

Thank you, Tim. And you both bring up some very good points as far as that position and what they do. Before I answer that though, I do, can I pick on Governor Armstrong a little bit? Absolutely. So when we do talk about the connection we have, I do have to share with you guys that the day my son was born, I remember Kelly just ran by my room and then he stops, comes back and he looks at me, he goes, "We had a baby." And I said, "Kelly, we did too." He's like, "Congratulations," and he's gone. I though that was great. But when I think of the energy, those of you who know Kelly well, you know he's very energetic and I think of Teddy Roosevelt and his energy as well. I think Governor Armstrong brings that to our state, so I wanted to add that.

But as far as emerging leaders, when you talk about... When I start with my... I work with 80 students a year around that number. And one of the first things we emphasize is I really want them to understand that leadership is not a title. Leadership is having the ability to bring out the best in others. It's being able to elevate those that you are working with. And I believe when you talk about first ladies and their positions, they each have their unique way of doing that and they understand the importance of making sure that the individual, the president, the person in that leadership position is healthy, is in a shape where they're able to handle any situation. And when they have a challenging day, they are able to come to their safe place, which is home, and they have that individual who they can have those conversations with.

And that's truly a leader. In my mind, when we are working with emerging leaders, we talk about the importance of being that person. It's not about the title. It's focus on the mission. What is your mission? Don't focus on receiving credit for what we're doing. I coached for several years as well. My husband and I both were college basketball coaches. I remember my first priority was making sure I had a good assistant coach. And in order for me to have a good assistant coach, I needed to invest time into that individual. The result of that is when you can have someone you respect, they respect you, trust, accountability, and your players or your employees, your organization, they feed into that, and now you have a culture that wants to accomplish that mission with you. I believe that the role of the First Lady, they're great role models.

When you think about that, they each have their strengths, they understand their strengths, and they're able to use those strengths to elevate not just the president or the person in that leadership position, but they themselves are quiet leaders. I think that adds so much value to any position.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Can I pick up on that one point too about most admired women? And it's been so important when you look at for the last 30 years when pollsters ask, "What's the most admired woman?" It is for the last 30 years has always been a current or a former First Lady of the United States. And so when we think about encouraging women leadership, encouraging women to be more involved in politics, these are the women that our young women are looking to as those role models. I think that's really important as the First Lady thinks about their role, they have to also understand, yes, they are supporting their husband, but they are also a role model themselves.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

May I add a couple of examples to that as they were both talking? It really reminded me of people like the Lady Bird Johnsons of the world who said, "I have a podium and I'm going to use it." She really is the first First Lady of the conservation movement. She cared about our natural landscape. She supported it, she lobbied for it, and the Highway Beautification Act is due as much to her as it is to Lyndon Johnson signing it. And you think of the bravery of someone like Betty Ford, who after six weeks of becoming First Lady after an already traumatic period, the resignation of Richard Nixon because of Watergate, is diagnosed with breast cancer at a time where the word breast and cancer was never even said in public. There was such stigma associated with it, yet she went public with it and was famously photographed after her surgery, throwing a football to her former football playing husband to show that my husband's still with me and B, I can have an active life again.

Anyone in the medical community will tell you that women's health is measured in two time periods before Betty Ford and after Betty Ford. That's how profound that act was for her to speak out. So you're both absolutely right. They are in this position that's so ill-defined, no salary. Pat Nixon called it the hardest unpaid job in the world, but it is such an opportunity to help drive the nation forward on issues that need attention and ultimately do not only help their own polls, but hopefully spills over to their husbands, not always.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

And think about Eleanor Roosevelt, no men in the press corps, so she would hold press conferences and invited just women reporters to that changed the face of journalism in many ways.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Most activist first lady of our history. Of course, she had 12 years to do it, but she begged Franklin for a role. I'll read your correspondence. I'll write your speeches. I'll travel for you. He did not want her to have a role, but that's the first thing she did within a week, held the first press conference for only female reporters because they were not really included in the president's press conferences. Over her time did almost 350 of those press conferences and really helped a burgeoning sector of the news, which was women in the news.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Betsy, you brought up earlier that the way the media covers has evolved, and of course we now have social media, which changes things a bit too. How do you see that impacting first ladies and how they dare to be bold?

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

It is hard, right? Do you struggle with some of that too as First Lady have to turn the table? You're dealing with this all the time, right?

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

I'm very mindful that I'm not elected and that I strive to support Kelly and their administration and I love to do great things for North Dakota, but nobody picked me to do it. So I try to stay in my lane.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Yeah. I mean, I think the amplification of social media, it adds another layer for First Ladies and their staffs to have to think about how they're engaging on all those platforms. It also opens up a lot of incoming negativity that can be fed on as well. When I think about, again, going back to women and inspiring young women to be more involved in public service, one of the main reasons that women say that they don't want to run for office is because of the viciousness of social media and the scrutiny of media at large and the negativity there. And it's a real deterrent for young women to take that step forward and go into public leadership.

MICHELLE ORDEN:

Well, and to add to that, you think about the private life and if you have children as well in trying to protect the children involved, and that's really difficult to balance as well.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

And security that goes along with that as well.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

And Michelle, you probably see some of that just in young leaders that you are helping shape, that it can be a deterrent.

MICHELLE ORDEN:

We talk about that in several of our leadership classes. I also serve on the Dickinson Public School Board and I serve on the state association as well. And so I have experience in that as well as far as the emails we receive, the phone calls as far as... And when you have children in the school system as well, sometimes those are thoughts that run through your mind as far as if a decision's made that people are not happy about, how do you protect your own kids from that? But as emerging leaders, we talk a lot about making sure that you stay grounded. I always remind our students, no matter what you go through, handle situations with grace. So make sure you take that step back and reevaluate the situation before you respond to people and be sure that your response is something that is not going to come back to you later.

Those are things you really have to be thoughtful, which is work. I'm sure you're aware of that too, Tim, everything you do, eyes watching. And so that is a difficult position for first ladies and women in those positions is you're balancing not only your spouse's position, but then your personal life as well.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Right.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Yep. Okay. Let's move on to the first lady today. The role of the first lady has changed enormously across the 20th and 21st centuries from hostess and symbolic figure to advocate, diplomat, policy voice and culture interpreter. What should we ask of first ladies today and what should we stop asking them to do? Anita, I'll start with you.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Sure. Well, I think we have an expectation, I think, as Americans that the first lady, the president's spouse, use that position for something, for something that is going to help the country or respond to a need. And I don't think that's unfair. It is, you're right. It's not the elected position. And I think we have seen examples of when the line has been crossed, like Mrs. Clinton and being involved in healthcare reform back in 1993 and 1994, that did not go so well. The country was not ready for it. Now, out of fairness to her, the president handed her that responsibility to oversee, and it was more the way it was done, not that it was Asked of her.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

It also fed into that narrative we were talking about earlier, right? About her. About her just being ambitious and the two for one. Exactly. It just doubled down on that.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

And it was very hard to walk back from that until recently, as you say. So I think our expectations are fair that they use the position in some way, but I think we also have to understand they have to do what's authentic to them and they're best at it when they are choosing a project or an initiative that they care about, know something about. It just brings a lot of credibility to it. I think the other thing is we do expect them to respond to emergent needs too. I think one of the best examples I can give you of that is after nine eleven. Laura Bush became a comforter in chief to the nation. No one could have prepared her on January 20th, 2001 when her Husband was sworn in, be prepared for a terrorist attack on the country, but you draw from your own inner reserves to respond to help the nation heal and be soothed and to be calm.

So I think it's a tough role or it's a tough answer to give you on what we should expect. We should expect them to try and use the position for good, I think is the most

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Basic answer I can give you. I strongly agree with that. Betsy, any additional thoughts?

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Yeah, I think that authenticity is important. And I think when First Ladies have been able to get that right, it's been most effective. When they haven't gotten it right or there's a misalignment, and I'm thinking back to Mrs. Trump in the first term when she did the anti-bullying online, which when her husband was on Twitter blowing up people, it was misaligned in some ways because it just begged the obvious. Are you saying this and this is happening on Twitter? And so this term, as I mentioned earlier, I think she's being much more strategic in finding ways that she can carve out some areas where she can be effective. And on this issue of foster care and helping children, this article I mentioned this morning has two very positive quotes from congressional Democrats. You don't see that happening about her husband. And so she's been able to kind of carve that lane out and is doing it in a very deliberative way.

And I think putting some more thought behind it, maybe that wasn't available in the first term.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

I agree. 100%.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

TR didn't like being VP because he didn't feel useful and I think it's the same thing. Yes, exactly. Michelle, any additional thoughts?

MICHELLE ORDEN:

I would agree with authenticity. I think that's important. I like to use the word pivot and I feel Mrs. Trump pivoted.

And I think she realized for the second term that she needed to establish a different reputation and she found her strengths like you said. And I think that was beneficial to President Trump as well. And I think we talk about being partners and I think Edith and TR, they had a partnership, a strong partnership. And that is so important in any type of relationship. And we talk in my program about leadership being relational. And I think it's investing in people, as I said earlier, but I think when they understand each other that way and the importance of being there for each other, that partnership to where I've got you, you have me. And I think President Trump and Mrs. Trump, you see that the second term in my opinion.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

It's interesting. In the first term, Mrs. Trump was willing to, and going back to something you said, Kirsty, earlier, she was willing to say things opposite of her husband. And one example really is during COVID when he was from the Oval Office saying, "You don't have to social distance, you don't have to wear a mask." She's on the front steps of the White House on the North Portico recording a public service announcement for the Centers for Disease Control, encouraging people to social distance and to wear a mask and really did not get credit for doing that, for having the willingness to really follow what was a protocol, like it or not, was what people thought would help them at that moment. And I think to the pivot, her platform now is the same platform. The Be Best platform is what is the basis for all these things that she is doing, but she has made the pivot on a select pieces that really do matter and are important to the country to pay attention about.

The rapidly changing technology, particularly artificial intelligence. If you follow the administration's work on this, she's really the leading voice. And I think that that's really very interesting and important and commendable.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

I agree. And I think the authenticity comes through that this is something she really cares about. First ladies are often expected to be influential, but then they're criticized when they are. First, some thoughts on that, but also if we have a first gentleman, do you think that will change that dynamic a little bit? Or when we have a first gentleman, I should say.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Sure. Would you like me to address the first gentleman and then... Yeah, no, I'd like to because I think first of all, we have a couple of examples that we can point to in our country. We have a number of female governors, male spouses, so how have they carved out the role? We can look at that as an example. But I think the most recent example at the national level, of course, with Kamala Harris being vice president and her husband, Doug Emhoff, as the first second gentleman, if you asked him the question, what's your most important role? He gave the most traditional response to support the vice president. So that indicates to me really that gender doesn't make a difference in that role. You're still the unelected person, you're there —

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

His approach but the media certainly treated him a little different.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Media treated, but then he also carved out two other roles. One was an initiative that the administration handed him, the antisemitism initiative. So he was out there pretty public on that. And then he also maintained a job outside the home. He was still working as a professor at Georgetown University. So I think there is still a certain amount of tradition that will always be associated with this role. And I think that is important and it goes to the point at the end of the day, it's not the elected official and it is a supportive role, but it is a platform to really use and use in that short period of time that you have temporary custodianship of it. I don't know, what do you think?

MICHELLE ORDEN:

As you were speaking, I was thinking back as far as my first year as a college basketball coach, my husband was actually my assistant. Yes.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

There you go.

MICHELLE ORDEN:

That was my most challenging year. But the reason I bring it up is before the games during warmups, the officials always made their way to him. They always made their way to him to ask if he had any questions and he was very good at always saying, "Turn around. She is on the other end." And that opened my eyes to that position and that role. And I do feel it's changing. And as we were just talking about soccer, women's soccer in the green room and WNBA and how much that has really sparked something for females as well. And I think it really has changed the narrative in my opinion. And so I feel you're right, I think traditionally we'll probably always have some of those beliefs, some of those traditions, but I do feel that there's been a change.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

I think too that the temptation that goes along with that when you've got a first gentleman or a second gentleman to pull them more into politics or maybe they would have a willingness to be more political. And I could see that happening a little more frequently if and when that time comes that the first gentleman is going to have to be very cognizant of that and not to really put up those divisions and speak out politically on certain issues because that would be the role of Madam President.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Well, can you imagine what it would've been like for Bill Clinton? I mean that we came so close to that twice. How would you have kept him from not talking about politics? It would've been impossible for her as president.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

It really would've been. But I was just thinking back to even after the presidency and thinking about Michelle Obama and we were at the Obama Library opening two weeks ago in Chicago and his remarks were very, as you would expect at a presidential library opening, not a lot of political undertones and very appreciative. And her speech, she got some political digs along the way in there. She had been unplugged in some ways and she I think is enjoying this post-presidency freedom to speak her mind more than she was able to in the White House.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Yep. We'll never run for President. So she says.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

And she's the one too, if you ask in polls, who would you support for president? I think her numbers eclipse anybody out there in the Democratic Party, but she wants to be political, but she doesn't want to actually be [MCBRIDE^Go in the arena.] Be our Madam President.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Yeah. So Anita, who do you think is the most impactful first lady that we've had in this country?

ANITA MCBRIDE:

Boy, it's such a hard question. I really love them all. In the three and a half years I spent researching each of them from Martha to Melania. I mean, the stories even covered are just so incredible. And particularly the women we know nothing about, like the Sarah Polk's of the world. bB any standard today, she would have been the most powerful chief of staff in the White House, but all she did to really not only help her husband get elected to every position he had, but how much she did behind the scenes policy-wise and to help him run the White House. Other examples, I'd love the story of Caroline Harrison who was asked to raise money for Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1890 and did it only if they would admit women for the first time. These are really acts of leadership. They're acts of forward thinking and they're acts of courage.

I think about Mary Todd Lincoln who gets the worst rap in history. And again, media could never turn around the media that was so negative about her and some of it self-inflicted. I mean, poor Abraham Lincoln, she's given an appropriation for four years to redo the White House and spends it in four months when the stirrings of Civil War around them. So she did not read the room there, yet an incredible first lady who really suffered a great deal. But I think if you had to evaluate the First Lady who always sort of raises to the top is the impact that she's had on the role of courses, Eleanor Roosevelt. And again, for some of the reasons that we mentioned before, 12 years she had to do it, the issues that she pushed, she did ultimately become the eyes, ears, and legs for Franklin Roosevelt. She had her critics, of course.

The country wasn't ready for all the things that she was talking about, but I think an important and impactful First Lady. But my favorite at the end of all the research that I did was Bess Truman. Strangely enough, I know most people are surprised at that, but she really did not want to be First Lady, of course, was very afraid of the public eye, was afraid the public would find out her father had committed suicide. That was a big stigma, of course, at the time and also for her family. But she was, bar none, one of the most influential, most important advisors and confidants of her husband. There was almost nothing that he did without checking with the boss as he called her. She had enormous impact on the White House and during the massive Truman renovation, 1948 to 1952 and really preserving the White House and did the one thing that she never wanted to do was speak to the media.

I mean, can you imagine this is the woman that had to follow Eleanor Roosevelt who did 348 press conferences and Bess Truman did one and answered only one question the year she was married. She did not want anybody intruding on her private life, but yet she was impactful. And again, Harry Truman, same thing like Teddy Roosevelt would say, "I go against her judgment. I regret it."

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

This is why I think, Anita, your book and the work that you're doing on the First Ladies and trying to educate people, especially young women today and classrooms to have this information because as you're talking, it's like this is not taught in schools. It's not. It's just not. And these are examples of women who have had incredible influence on our country. And being able to learn and take some of those leaderships, even if it's quiet leadership, is so impactful. And that's why I think your book is amazing. Thank you. [MCBRIDE^And there is a textbook too.] Thank you for all of the work that you do.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

For anybody, university people here. It is a textbook as well. Thank you, Betsy.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

And Betsy, do you have a First Lady you admire particularly?

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

I mean, I would have to agree on Eleanor Roosevelt for the aforementioned, and I've always been fascinated with her even as a kid. And she was, I think one of the First Ladies that did sort of break through when we were growing up learning about First Ladies, that she was one that you did learn about. I did, I think my fifth grade book project on her and I made a little diary and fringe the edges and fire and a little cover. I still have a little diary of Eleanor Roosevelt. But as a young woman, a young girl growing up, I was drawn... There was not a lot of other women to really look to for women's leadership. And I was drawn to her from an early age and learning about her and studying her and thinking of her as a role model even back then.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

And she was on Meet the Press.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

She was.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

She was on Meet the Press.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

She was on Meet the Press many, many times after she was First Lady.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

She was representing, I think who was Adley Stevenson was running for president as a Democratic nominee. And Margaret Chase Smith, the Republican Senator from New Hampshire was... I don't know who the Republican candidate for president.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

Yay.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

She's from Maine. Thank you. Sorry about that. You're from Maine obviously. But they debated each of... They did a debate on Meet the Press, which is incredible.

BETSY FISCHER MARTIN:

And she was on also talking about and was asked the question, will there ever be a female president in your lifetime? And she thought there would be one day a female president, but she said she didn't want to be it. Exactly.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

I'll give you a chance to.

MICHELLE ORDEN:

Okay. For me, I would have to say Nancy Reagan. The reason for that is I was in elementary during those years and I grew up in Los Angeles, so the DARE program was huge. And for us, I always like to say Nancy Reagan kept us from drugs. It was an impactful program when I was growing up for sure in the 80s.

ANITA MCBRIDE:

And she was so criticized for the simplicity of the term, Just Say No, which was a young student that actually suggested that title to her. And Mrs. Reagan did so much with that program that she's another First Lady, typecast from the beginning, comes into the White House in 1981, the country's in the beginnings of a recession. She spends money on China, not public money, private money thanks to the White House Historical Association. President of the association is here today, so he knows that history, but yet could never, in almost her whole eight years, could not shake the impression of her as too glamorous, too fancy, which was unfortunate. I think the public began to see her differently only in the later years of her husband's illness and how she took care of him.

MICHELLE ORDEN:

Well, that was an example of — an example of what you were saying earlier where she tried to use her platform and criticized for it. Exactly.

KJERSTI ARMSTRONG:

Well, we are out of time officially. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you for your insights.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Listeners, so glad to have you along for Live from the TRPL, our special six-part series from the library's grand opening. You can find more interviews and talks like these online at trlibrary.com/video, where you'll also see the library's opening ceremony, drone shows, news stories, historical footage, and so much more. Check it out and thanks for listening.