Rahm Emanuel: A Fight for the Center and Winning the Lottery of Life

RAHM EMANUEL:

Being a citizen puts you in the arena. You're not allowed to be a critic. You're not allowed to be in the mezzanine if you're a citizen. And we have a politics that has pushed people out, and then part of the screaming, yelling, et cetera, is really because people want to be seen, they want to be heard, and a lot of times our politics doesn't permit that.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Welcome to Good Citizen, a podcast from the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library. I'm Ted Roosevelt. My guest today is Ambassador Rahm Emanuel. Rahm is first and foremost a public servant. He served in the Clinton administration and as White House Chief of Staff under President Obama. He's also a former mayor, congress member, and diplomat. Today, he is considering his own run for president, and whatever your politics, there's no denying that he is in the arena, and we get into it. Rahm explains why both parties are losing the plot and his pretty unsentimental take on how the administration has made peace with failure. This spring, he rode his bike throughout New Hampshire, stopping in homes, community centers, and at least one crowded barn. And he came home with a clear-eyed read on what's really keeping people up at night. The two of us sat down recently to talk about all of this during the grand opening of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, which is exactly where our conversation begins. I think you'll enjoy it.

You just walked through the library for the first time. I'm curious to get your thoughts.

RAHM EMANUEL:

First, the architecture is now speaking for my Chicago root, spectacular. And it does bring to light for another generation, a man who changed the country and a man who changed the presidency having worked for three presidents. It's a fabulous library. This is a national treasure. Having seen what I had to do for getting President Obama's situated, et cetera, this is not for the faint heart to get this done.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

It's really not. And you were helpful with this library as well, so you had a lot on your plate.

RAHM EMANUEL:

So a small role, but it's a national treasure and I can't think of a better location.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah. Well, thank you.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Because the Badlands are such a piece of the formative character development.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah, there's no question that this place was very special to him. And I think you need to come out here to really experience it, to understand it. We've had this with donors, we've had this with other supporters. They're interested until they come out and then they're really excited.

RAHM EMANUEL:

No, no, this is going to grab your soul. You're not going to leave. You're not going to walk in and walk out the same person.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the goal. I'm going to switch topics a little bit. I want to talk about what I'm going to consider the elephant in the room, which is you've talked about running for president and you recently did a bike tour in New Hampshire. I'm curious about that experience. What did you learn?

RAHM EMANUEL:

It's not exactly the whistle stop, but that it has a lot of wheels.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yes. Yeah.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Well, look, I love to bike. That was my 10th bike trip. Along the route, I think we did seven town halls, living rooms, backyards. We did something in a barn, about 150 folks showed up and you get a pretty good cross section of what some folks might.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

What were the surprises? What were the lessons that you came away with?

RAHM EMANUEL:

So one, massive anxiety, not just about today, but more about tomorrow for their kids. And that anxiety, and you can see this interpreted through the AI, is really torqued up because they don't think anybody in Washington is either paying attention, has their hand on the tail or trying to get stuff done. So there's a major 80 mile an hour headwind. Owning a home's become impossible. It's gone from 26 to 40 as your starter from the age group. Saving for a college education used to be that was going to be your ticket into the middle class. Today there was direct beeline to your parents' basement. Third, your 401k was supposed to be part of your retirement security in your plan. Now you're taking money out just to make the paycheck meet the end of the month. And on healthcare, rather than being somewhat of a peace of mind, something with your doctor, it's basically an unending battle with insurance companies. So the entire foundation is broken. I met a young couple, a plumber, she does real estate. They're not married yet. They can't afford a home. They're both on Obamacare. So that was exciting that you had someone to make their life, but yet premiums just went up a hundred bucks for each of them individually. And so all the anxieties are there and they're more anxious because they don't think anybody's actually doing the work that they're hired to do, which is help solve problems. So I decided on the bike ride. It's 113 miles. We climbed 5,200 feet, I would say. I have yet to see the downhill part. I saw all the uphill part.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Uphill both ways. Yeah. I'm interested because you're known as a fighter and there's —

RAHM EMANUEL:

A middle child.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

A middle child. And what we're seeing part of the issue in terms of the outlook is the polarization of the country right now. Is there a place for optimism down the middle that also is a good place for a fighter?

RAHM EMANUEL:

You actually hit on something because one of the things that I'm attracted to about President Teddy Roosevelt and about others is there's an assumption implicit that somehow the middle is split the difference. And he was radical about eccentrism. So I do think, and I do it this way about my background, which is when it came to both ensuring 10 million children that had no healthcare and taking on the insurance company, which I happen to think is a pretty centrist thing, the President Clinton said, "You get the ball." Same with President Obama on universal coverage. When I was mayor, we took our graduation rate from 56% to 83% and created universal kindergarten and universal pre-K for every child. So when it comes to making what I think are really important changes, I think that fighter is, I joke, but I mean it, nobody's gotten in an arena with me.

They didn't walk out with a broken nose. And I got a lot of insurance company, pharmaceutical companies, financial banks and insurance companies that can all attest to that, including the NRA on the gun lobby. When I became mayor, Chicago had the shortest school day in the shortest school year in the entire United States of America. And so can centrism defined as forward needs a fighter. It's not about splitting the difference. It does mean listening and sometimes when the listening's over, you just move forward.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Democrats are, I think, historically unpopular right now. The party, what are they doing wrong?

RAHM EMANUEL:

So you're going to be here for dinner? So politics is pretty cynical. The Democrats are unpopular. Republicans are unpopular. The largest party today used to be a third, a third and a third. Today, 50% of the country are just shy, describe themselves as independents, which is basically a good portion of that is pox on both your houses. But on the Democrat side, when your back's against the wall, you can't pay your rent, you can't pay your utilities or you're missing your medicine because you don't think you have enough for the next prescription. You expect Democrats to show up. That's our job. Okay. The other side, something else. But when your back's against the wall and you're having incoming from all sides, you call the calvary and we're off doing bathroom access, locker room access, transgender sports. We're anywhere but where you expected us. And people have a right to be pissed off and we weren't there. As I say, we got wrapped around a cultural cul-de-sac and never found the exit on that. And in 2016, a full decade from where you and I are sitting today, as mayor, I dealt with bathroom access. I never took my eye off of reading, math scores and graduation rates. Now, do I believe in a culture of acceptance? I do. Do I believe in being a culture of advocacy? I don't. We're going to create a welcoming environment, but it is not going to be my full-time job taking my eye off of the ball as the mayor. And I think the party got lost. And as my kids would say about me, they lost the plot.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah. So I'm curious because part of that, the issues with woke was this nationalization of politics and that everything became a national issue as opposed to a local issue. There's the old expression that all politics are local. Today it feels like all politics are national and we're fighting these sort of culture wars that may or may not really impact people in their homes. Is there a way to return the focus?

RAHM EMANUEL:

I'm only laughing because I said this without dropping names. Hillary Clinton and [**], we were talking, I said, look, you got to know the family room, you got to know the classroom, you got to know the boardroom, the break room, the situation room. And the problem for both parties is one stuck in the bathroom and the other one's stuck in the bedroom and those are the two smallest rooms in the house and we got to get out of there. And so look, I do think that you can create a politics that once again works for the American people. I do believe that. Being a citizen puts you in the arena. You're not allowed to be a critic. You're not allowed to be in the mezzanine if you're a citizen. And we have a politics that has pushed people out and then part of the screaming, yelling, et cetera, where everything becomes hot for the Andy Warhol 15 minutes is really because people want to be seen, they want to be heard, and a lot of times our politics doesn't permit that.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Is there a viable path for a national politician to knit the country back together or is the way politics are structured today, you really need to have a punching bag on the other side?

RAHM EMANUEL:

So let's go a little history lesson. I mean, President Teddy Roosevelt had a couple punching bags. For sure. Okay, that's what the trust busting is. So he knits the country together, creates a story, but does have an opponent in the same way that Franklin Roosevelt does, the same way that you could argue Eisenhower, Truman around the Soviet Union. Actually, when we don't have a common enemy is where it all fragments.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

That's where we start fighting each other.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Yeah. We want to fight. We end up turning on each other. Now, I think given where America is today, this is a generational piece of the puzzle, which is to knit a country together is not going to be done overnight. And for this country at this moment, can we stitch it together? Yes, but we need to reignite the kindle and the candle of citizenship. You don't know this, but one of the things I've proposed going back 20 years, six months of mandatory minimum of national service. The last six months of high school and your summer, you will do national service. You'll still do your history, your math, your reading, all that. You're going to clean up a river. You're going to volunteer tutoring time on reading. I don't really care. Just something where you give back, something where you also work with kids in different parts of your state or your city.

If you did two years, my proposals will give you the money for the down payment on your home. I believe we kindle that thing that unites us.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

You were ambassador to Japan.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Yeah.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

And I'm wondering if you learned anything about America in that experience.

RAHM EMANUEL:

I learned a tremendous amount of Japan, a tremendous amount about the Indo-Pacific. The country I learned the most about is America. Practicing in the area of public service for 32 plus years of my life, been blessed in different roles and responsibilities. When you say, what did I learn? I'm looking at this country and look, I ain't innocent. I've been practicing hardball political come from Chicago. We play rough. I'm looking at this country and I'm going, I don't recognize it. And I'll tell you what I don't recognize. I'm looking at a country that has accepted failure as a default option. In the last two months, we've gotten two reports, one on reading, one on math scores, where basically we are 30 years behind of where we were 30 years ago. Our kids, 50% of them, half cannot read at grade level. Do you know what's the largest expanding class at colleges today?

Remedial reading and math. And every president, every governor, every mayor looks at their shoes and hopes nobody notices that they have a title. I mean, do you know the president's position on windmills, right?

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah, of course.

RAHM EMANUEL:

You know he's never mentioned the reading scores in America, never mentioned the math scores in America, and we become complacent with failure. And I'm like, "Hello, anybody?" I'm like, "What is going on?" And so I can't tell you sitting in Tokyo, I'm looking at this and I'm like, "That's not the country I just left." But I will say this, nothing China does scares me. Nothing. What scares me is what we don't do. And here's what I mean. China doesn't decide whether we're complacent with 50% of our kids not able to read. We decide. China doesn't decide whether we have a mid 20th century energy system or a 21st century energy system. We decide. China doesn't decide whether we declare war on the greatest scientific research universities in the world or not. We decide. Vince LaParti gets this quote. I don't think it's actually his, but "Failing is not an option. Failure is not an option."

TED ROOSEVELT V:

One thing that's very clear in talking to you is your passion about being in the arena. And I'm curious because I think the acceptance of failure is what you sort of alluded to earlier, is this idea that people aren't in the arena themselves. And so I would like to hear what it is that makes you so interested in being in the arena in order to encourage other people to develop that passion if they're not running for president necessarily.

RAHM EMANUEL:

No, look, wait a second. My uncle was a police officer in Chicago. He was in the arena. My brother teaches public health and works on health policy. We don't agree on everything, but you don't have to be an idiot and run for office to be in the arena. This is my level of brain damage I like. One, very personal. I grew up in a home. We had a dinner table, round. My mother wanted no head of the table, and you had to come to the table at the age six and you had to be able to debate about what was the current news, current events, et cetera. My dad, in the country only two years, quits the AMA over universal healthcare and decides to sue the city of Chicago, not a really great idea when Richard J. Daley's mayor over lead in household paint and he sues them.

So we grew up very political family, that's one. Two, in the Jewish faith, if you save one life, you save humanity. And if you're going to live a life, this is the way I want to do it. There's 20,000 kids that have gone to college for free in Chicago because I was willing to take on an institution. There's 40,000 kids today that get free pre-K eight hours, seven hours a day because I was willing to take on failure and not accept it. Those are, I find emotionally and spiritually rewarding. That doesn't mean a teacher, a school principal, a police officer, a firefighter, people doing other walks, academics, they are in the arena of working on improving the lives and saving another life. And I've wanted to work in public service. I'm fortunate, hard work, lucky, all those things to then end up with President Clinton and President Obama and then getting the confidence of the people of the city of Chicago, both as mayor and as congressman.

I think if you're going to spend your time in life, you want to make sure somewhere you put your thumb on the scale and it tips in the right way for others. Your kids, my kids, they're going to loving home, good education, they're going to be okay. It's not true for everybody.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Where do you think the acceptance of failure comes from?

RAHM EMANUEL:

Well, I don't think there was a light switch. This is a dial — it dims. When I look back at our politics, I think there are four seminal moments of the first quarter of the century and all have one narrative, but they're different events. First, we have a war in Iraq that was built on a lie. There is no yellow cake in NIGER, and we spend a trillion dollars and 50,000 of our fellow Americans either lose their lives or maimed for life. And everybody responsible for the lie never pays a single day of professional either guilt or judgment. They're still sitting on board, still teaching, still writing opinion pieces if people are interested in their opinion. Four years after that, seven million Americans lose their home, their life savings, but piece of the American dream, and bankers are arguing for their bonus as if they were selling a thing called the liar loan.

Lie, lie. And nobody pays a price. You go four years later, Xi comes to power in China and we say to Battle Creek or Bismarck, "You could take on Beijing all by yourself. Go for it." And we walk away and everybody else is okay and it's built on a lie. We're going to hold them accountable to the rules of the world trade, and we never do. Six years later, COVID comes about and everybody who's an essential worker has to serve and everybody else gets to do remote work. And so the narrative of the first 25 years is those who write the rules, apply the rules and can afford the rules are well off and everybody else is down wind of that. And so when you ask me where did it come from, let me circle back to your first question, what did I learn on the bike trip?

They feel like the people that were given the keys to the car who got the titles, basically walked away from their responsibility. And somehow failure was as long as we're okay, well, tough luck. That's my explanation. I'd be open to a debate and discussion on this, but to me, those are the most disruptive thing that happens in people's lives. And all of them have heads, eye, win, tails you lose associated with them.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

One thing you don't mention explicitly is money in politics. And maybe that's sort of embedded throughout your answer, but maybe you think of that as a lesser issue.

RAHM EMANUEL:

No, I think we have a rotten Supreme Court is what I think that has... I think every time this Supreme Court has had an ability to allow democracy to get strengthened or to take a breather, whether it's from Voting Rights Act to money in politics, they have always gone for power over the people every time. They have written a set of rules about money in politics. I think you're not going to change money in politics, but you can change the ethics laws and the corruption laws.That's why I called 75 years judiciary executive legislator out. You're done. You're finished. You're over. Next, you have over a million dollars, mandatory blind trust throughout government, everybody. I've never seen anything like this. And trust me, this is a level of corruption even an alderman in Chicago would blush at this point.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Well, what's amazing is how unhidden it is. That's the part that is most unsettling to me is not that we have corrupt politicians, but that it's out in the open and people aren't up in arms.

RAHM EMANUEL:

No, it's not just open. It's brazen. Actually, I don't agree with you on one last thing. They're going to have their comeuppance. There is no way... I mean, I actually think it's metaphoric, if I may, two things. One, he makes the bulk of his billions the president on crypto where he makes the money and everybody else loses. If there was a metaphor for his presidency, that's it. Second —

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Maybe his career, but yeah.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Don't take offense, but he takes his maiden flight of his new Air Force One that the Qataris give him, which is a whole different interpretation of what foreign aid looks like. And he comes to a guy, your grandfather, who spent his life getting actually money out of politics and also understanding that public service is a noble profession. That plane is an example of the corruption. That ballroom is an example of corruption. And it is brazen, but let me say this, it is not lost on the American people. They are the thin blue line that will protect us this November. Corporate America, as my grandmother would say, pooey on you. Supreme Court, forget about it. Republicans count, forget about it. The American people will stand up.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Well, that is, I think, a question because to the comment about failure, I think people feel disenfranchised from the political system because they know that money and powerful influences are actually making —

RAHM EMANUEL:

Can I give you — pushback on that?

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Please.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Okay.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

I want you to push back on that because it's a sad -

RAHM EMANUEL:

Okay. Everybody, you're not the first to say, oh, people are... They're beaten down, et cetera. Forget the recent New York thing. Everywhere else, massively competitive turnout. Democrats are turning out and Independents are turning out massive numbers across the country. The only place it was turned out was when it was a battle in a Democratic primary between a socialist and a traditional Democrat. So to me, actually, I don't think people have accepted it. I actually don't.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

So how do you feel about one of the big talking points on the right right now is the rise of democratic socialism? What are your thoughts on it?

RAHM EMANUEL:

Okay, I got three things. One, I'm not interested in people that take a blue district and make it midnight blue. I'm not. Doesn't get you a gavel. I'm interested in taking... I spent my whole life with President Clinton, President Obama, or Nancy Pelosi as speaker, taking red district and making it blue. So my new blue is navy blue. You have a bunch of navy women like in South Carolina, like in New Jersey, because they're taking on Republicans, flipping districts, and that's how you get a minimum wage increase. That is how you investigate corruption, hold it accountable. Replacing one Democrat with another ain't diddly. That's one. Two, I'd like to remind you, the color of Democratic socialist, what's their color? Red. I ain't into it. I make the navy blue. Okay. Number three, some of these people blame us for Putin's invasion in Ukraine. I'm not taking blame for that.

That's Putin. Second, they're for defunding the police. I'm not for that. They're for open borders. I'm not for that. Okay? So we can have a broad coalition, but it's not including in things that are actually work against America and American interest, both here and abroad. So forget about it. And set up your own party. We have things to work out in our party, but that's not open borders. That's not defunding the police. That's not blaming NATO for what Putin does in Ukraine. What is this? And I'm a capitalist. We're sitting here at this great library. He didn't tame capitalism. He reformed it to work for everybody. His goal was to create winners in the winner circle. The big problem with America is we have gotten to a point in our lives where we're about wealth preservation, not wealth creation, and we have to return to the roots of wealth creation, not preservation.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah. TR's Square Deal and policies were really centered on a level playing field, and I think most Americans, and I certainly would agree, don't think it's a level playing field anymore for the average American.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Guess what? Even paranoid people have enemies. Yes, it is not a level playing field.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

I am curious though, because one of the critiques of wokeism is there was sort of an ideological purity test within the party. And what I hear you saying about democratic socialism is those ideas don't have a home here. Is there a way for the Democratic Party to be as broad and as big and as accepting as it can be, understanding that those democratic socialists have legitimate concerns? They may be expressing them in ways that are not helpful.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Well, it's not that... Look, they're more socialists than they are Democrat, and there's certain things. The party doesn't believe in open borders. It doesn't believe that if you're a criminal, you shouldn't be actually kicked out of the country. It doesn't believe in defunding the police departments. And in fact, I would just like to note, if you look at the net results of who's winning or whatever, these democratic soldiers are not winning in poor working class democrats. And there's a reason. They hear and they don't buy this. As I like to say, they're not rich enough to afford socialism.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Well, it actually makes me think of the... Okay. Let me ask you a final question here, which is to that point, you're the son of an immigrant.

RAHM EMANUEL:

And grandson.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

And a grandson of an immigrant. How does that influence? Because what you just described is that influences people's views, their experience.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Here's my thing. My grandfather, my mother's side and grandmother lived with us. My father comes to this country. I think I've won the lottery ticket of life. I'm going to close on this one thing. So when we're growing up, my parents put in the family room a red little purse with little fake diamonds in it sewn into it, and it was the purse that carried my grandmother and my two great aunts' passports, and above it was their passports we found into the originals.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Wow.

RAHM EMANUEL:

And on either side of that was black and white photos of family relatives who never made it to America, either through the programs and other things that just didn't make it. And it was my parents' way of reminding us, the three boys, that you are lucky to be in this country and you are not to be reckless with it. I think I have won the lottery ticket of life. Two of my three kids have also... I told them, all three, you're going to do some public service. They chose the Navy. You owe this country that has been generous and great to your family, your greatness. That is what my grandfather taught me. That is what my mother and father have taught me, and the eyes of my family who never made it here are on us.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

I can't think of a better message to end this podcast on. Thank you very much, Rahm.

RAHM EMANUEL:

Thanks for this work in doing this.

TED ROOSEVELT V:

Yeah. Thank you, Rahm, for making the trip to the library and for taking the time to speak in the auditorium for its grand opening, but of course, also for sitting down here with me. I enjoy hearing your thoughts and the passion you bring with them. Listeners, I hope you take this conversation as a call to action and a reminder that citizenship is not a spectator sport. And don't forget, the library is now open. It's a special place that I hope you'll all get to experience. Good Citizen is produced by the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in collaboration with the future of storytelling and charts and leisure. You can learn more about TR's Presidential Library at trlibrary.com.